44ceaa56 No.3626924[Last 50 Posts]
How about a literature thread? Which books do you consider required reading? Doesn't have to be talking animals themed. But who doesn't love talking animals?
I've read the books in the post images except Redwall, but I watched the cartoon. I liked the cartoon, but it gave me the impression the book series is more suited toward a younger audience. It's highly rated, so maybe I'll read it eventually.
Watership Down is my favorite of these. It's sorta like Lord of the Rings but with rabbits. The rabbits have their own mythology and language (lapine) and the book is highly quotable. The original film based on the book is excellent too, but they leave out important characters like Blackavar. The film is kinda hardcore.
Renard the Fox is probably the least suitable for children. It's all poetry following the misdeeds (including sexual) of the eponymous anthro red fox. He's an amoral trickster whose exploits include raping a wolf and wiping his ass with the king's flag and throwing it at him. Fun stuff.
Mrs. Frisby and the rats of NIHM is about, well, basically the Don Bluth film, but without the magic. They changed her name to "Brisby" in the film for stupid trademark reasons (blame Wham-O). Anyway, there are super intelligent rats who have harnessed the power of electricity, but they see tapping humans' electric power grid as stealing and wish to generate their own. Mrs. Frisby goes to them for help moving her home, so her son Timothy, who's sick with pneumonia, doesn't get plowed by the farmer. She was married to one of these super intelligent rats (Jonathan), who died. So interspecies, because Mrs. Frisby is a field mouse. I read this for school way back in elementary school, so I forgot all the details. But I remember generally liking it. The films based on this book and Watership Down are both classics.
5d87f67c No.3627843
>She was married to one of these super intelligent rats (Jonathan), who died. So interspeciesWhoops. Jonathan was actually a mouse too. He and Mr. Ages were the only mice to escape the NIMH lab. Told you I forgot most of the details.
>>3626925This is a good book from what I remember. Had to read it in high school. There was a scene from Johnny Bravo where he loses his shit and starts chanting, "Four feet good! Two feet bad!" I couldn't find it on youtube. Anyway it's a reference to Animal Farm I didn't get as a kid.
https://johnnybravo.fandom.com/wiki/Aunt_Katie's_FarmI'll get around to reading 1984 eventually. I chose to read Brave New World instead recently, and I need to take a break before picking up another dystopian novel.
>>3626926Those look interesting.
>>3626927So it's an antro/sci-fi/detective series? Seems legit.
>>3626928Cool. Thanks for those.
3bb6695c No.3627858
I blame Redwall for becoming a furry. It was a nice series of children's novels, and I hope he died happy never knowing what he had done to so many unsuspecting children. Anyone know what the best translation of the Renard stories is?
>>3626926You might enjoy The Last and First Men and Stapledon's other novels.
24df24b5 No.3629002
The Wind in the Willows?
52c86868 No.3629014
this is going to sound like stupid brony bs, but fallout equestria is actually a really good read if you're into that. It has a sick sense of humor that I just never saw anywhere else.
IMO FOE:Horizons is better, but it really leans on the first book for a lot of basic world building.
I listen to a lot of audio books and old timey radio show like things when im playing video games, heres a link to a surprisingly good recording of an audio book of fallout equestria, if you want to give it a quick listen while you're doing other stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lCyD3-jSFNU&list=PLBX-BvTh7SMC_NGlshPVbWEPJSCy0fTI9 13a0ae73 No.3629015
>>3629014>Autistic pony fanfictionKill yourself
52c86868 No.3629019
Iron Druid is pretty good too, if just for the magical talking dog. Oberon is the best irish wolfhound. Plus theres a straight up gangster bar shoot out with magical jewish rabies and buddy jesus.
52c86868 No.3629025
http://audiobookbay.ws/basically the pirate bay of audiobooks, I've never ran into a single honeypot torrent, its proved pretty safe.
Just putting it out there in case you want to listen to some books and not waste amazon credits on obscure stuff with audiable.
52c86868 No.3629027
>>3629025if you're just bored and want to listen to some background noise. "The Great Lectures" series is great to just listen to while doing mindless labor. I learned so much more than I ever wanted about how horse and ox harnesses differ, and way more than anyone should know about the medevil era just listening to those things.
0e0afaea No.3629204
>>3627858>>3627858Patricia Terry's Renard translation is excellent for two reasons - first, it is a taken from the original Old French version, written around 1175 A.D. The original stories were filled with sex, violence and profanity. They were also filled with humour, gut-wrenching drama, and so far ahead of their time, you'd think they'd just been written last week.
The second reason Terry is so good, is that she censors nothing. The only problem I have is that she didn't do more. Le Roman de Renart (The Epic of Renart) is huge -something like 23 books or "branches" and 62,000 lines. It's like The Illiad or The Odyssy. Terry gives you parts of four branches (all good ones).
Renard is truly great literature. It was not only popular for centuries, but was very influential. I'll have to get back to you on how much it was (and still is).
52c86868 No.3629208
Its not a thing i'd suggest reading, but I'd really like to get a copy of the Berenstein bears from my own time line before I just died and had to deal with the alternate Bearenstain version.
c0c4c49a No.3629209
Whatever you do, just don't read the Lord of the Ring. It's boring AF.
96623fd2 No.3629361
the is a book from waaayyyy back by Steve Senn called "a circle in the sea" . thats the book that laid the foundation for my furry obsession.
7d78ce4d No.3629362
>>3629361addendum : Then came the internet and BBS´s and Doug Winger ruined me. Forever.
a3288201 No.3629368
>>3629362If Doug Winger's abortions aroused you in any way then you were already irreparably broken to begin with
d8e51f94 No.3629373
you can't fool me, none of you can read
a3288201 No.3629430
>>3629429Never heard of it.
c4183e8f No.3629472
>>3629430then you know what to sunrise yourself with for Christmas , right?
c4183e8f No.3629473
>>3629472Why is my auto correct so fucked up these days ? Has Gates been tinkering with something a gain just because he lost 108 billion dollars at the divorce ? Then he shouldn't travel with Epstein and rape little kids while Mossad records everything in 4k HD
I meant : Surprise ….. Jeez
52c86868 No.3629475
>>3629473I kinda figured "sunrise" was some inside joke i wasn't getting. I might check out the series. I'm pretty much on a haitus from buying books atm, too many books, not enough shelves.
b734f87a No.3636546
One of my favorite furry themed book series was silverwing and the following stories sunwing firewing and darkwing.
If I had to say which was a fave of the 4 was darkwing and a close second was firewing because it is like dantes inferno but with bats instead of humans and demons.
de8c482d No.3639557
I've been absent here lately. Real life has been more demanding than usual. This year was kinda rough. Had 3 deaths in the family, 4 if you count dogs. I served as a pallbearer soon after Thanksgiving. Anyway, I'm here right now, and I'm surprised this thread hasn't fallen off the edge of the board yet.
The Weasel Wednesday before last, I was doing some Christmas shopping for my nephews. I think I mentioned my sister gave birth to triplets July of this year, so the year wasn't so bad. I guess that makes me like Scrooge McDuck, except not as stingy. And only two of the triples are identical. And none of us are ducks, but who knows to which species they will identify with age.
Anyway, I didn't even realize what day it was when I stumbled across this book. Only later did I notice the coincidence of being presented with a weasel on a Wednesday. I found this in the science section of the book store, called How to Be a Good Creature: A Memoir in Thirteen Animals. It's a New York Times bestseller apparently.
I only read the section about the stoat, and it seemed pretty good. But I didn't buy it. I ended up buying a bunch of kids books. Some of which were too advanced for bedtime stories for such a young age. But even though they don't yet understand English, they still benefit from being read bedtime stories. Just hearing language, y'know? So you could read them anything really.
de8c482d No.3639559
Here's a newer book that's pretty cute with good life lessons. I got them this too.
>>3629002I somehow found time to watch the film based on this book after you suggested it. It was pretty good. I'll try to read the book eventually.
ed9ebf9f No.3640329
She's also maturing sexually, and is confused and scared by it. As you might notice in the excerpt below, some of this guilt comes from Sharpears' upbringing as a Catholic fox. With all this going on, she meets a muscular, handsome male fox ("Dear God!, He's so Gorgeous!", she says to herself) and starts to let her guard down. She ends up having sexual fantasies that she finds so disturbing they bring her to tears. An excerpt:
"Sharp-Ears Has Impure Thoughts"
[Sharp-Ears] slipped into bed. But she could not fall asleep. She lay on her back, smoothed out her tail, and stretched all four legs.
"Am I really pretty?" she asked herself. "What is nice about me?"
She was sorry that he had kissed the tip of her tail, where she had the ugly scar from the forester's trap. With shaking paws she gently touched her breast and turned over again. But her thoughts gave her no peace. She sat up, examined her whole figure with curiosity, and with a strict glance measured her hips. She smiled happily.
"I'm not that bad, after all."
She began to doze off contentedly when suddenly her eyes stared again. Some very strange fantasies had begun to plague her. Her head was full of wonderfully beautiful but at the same time horribly repulsive thoughts. God knows where they were coming from. Shame brought tears to her eyes. Why, she had caught herself puckering up her lips in sleep as (fie!) as if she were trying to kiss someone!
She picked up some pebbles and began to pray fervently, as Mama Fox had taught her. She said as many Our Fathers as there
were pebbles.
Calmed at last, she dozed off into a chaste sleep.
The book is called "The Cunning Little Vixen" in English, and by the way, has some major differences with the film/opera. It's been translated into many laguages (pic shows the English, Italian, French German and Czech versions). The 1985 English version is illustrated by Maurice Sendak, which probably got it bought as a kids book, which, of course, it definitely isn't.
aacbf36f No.3640330
>>3640329You should zip up, your autism is hanging out again.
52c86868 No.3640450
>>3640447weirdly enough, I went ahead and did an audiobookbay search for him, and apparently DT has done a lot of voice acting in audiobooks in general.
140e062d No.3640518
>>3640425>has anyone had trouble "settling down" to read a book?Unfortunately, yes. I should make it a new years resolution to read before bed instead of peck at the handheld dopamine dispenser.
0aa0bf3d No.3640520
>>3640518Trusting a robotic voice to lull you into a false sense of security, pushing you into a trusting relationship as it uses its frequencies to manipulate your neuron connections. Yeah, have fun there when booking-it-now app turns to a snapshot of you in a personalized torture chamber made from a vocoder brain-net.
b68d6f39 No.3640524
>>3640520And here I thought the works of Shadowgate and Cambridge analytic for their Atlantic Counsel masters was bad enough.
You , Sir , has just raised my Paranoia further like a true Master Manipulator. Bravo !
de8c482d No.3640692
>>3629207This really is obscure. This is basically as much as I could find out about it.
>Elmer, a spotted skunk, the type that rarely offends, leaves his bride, Plumey, to seek fame as a song and dance guy in California's fictional animal reservation, Happy Hollow. Because they are the last of their breed and because she adores Elmer, Plumey sets after him. Angered by the competition of an ingenious flying squirrel, Elmer's skunkhood asserts itself and all the animals flee from him. It is this indiscretion which gives Plumey the key to Elmer's whereabouts and the two set off together with enthusiastic plans to perpetuate the race. Almost too crowded with animals, and despite Harold Berson's most appealing black and white illustrations – this departure from the author's usually straightforward and extremely successful nature stories, is disappointing. In writing for children of a younger age category, he has entered into a realm of fantasy with which he is not very successful, in that he endows his animals with somewhat vulgar human qualities which seem neither appropriate to their genuine nature nor do they enhance the imaginative tone of the story.How many pages is the book?
>>3640329>Maurice SendakNever understood how
Where the Wild Things Are gained mass appeal. Always thought the monster character designs were crap, and the story was just okay. Surprisingly, it was banned at one point. Why? Because Max was sent to bed without supper, and that's a traumatizing prospect for American children.
Anyway, even though you're not supposed to judge a book by its cover, I'd be tempted to put
The Cunning Little Vixen back down, simply because of the human face. She is depicted as a human girl wearing a fox costume. I wouldn't think the story is about a fox, anthro or feral.
But because you explained what it's about, I'll look into it.
>>3640425>has anyone had trouble "settling down" to read a book?Not really. My problem is I'll start reading another book before I finish others. But I usually do finish them all eventually.
I'm just glad I'm not illiterate. It's more common than you'd think.
>According to the U.S. Department of Education, 54% of adults in the United States have prose literacy below the 6th-grade level.I want to become fluent in another language though. I took German in high school. But if you don't use it, you get kinda rusty.
ed9ebf9f No.3640731
>>3640692The book is 187 pages (1985 edition). Some of Maurice Sendak's pictures used in the book, like the one you mentioned, are actually costume designs that Sendak did for a New York City Opera production of Janacek's opera. Her's another cover you see sometimes with Sendak's "non-costume" art which is also used in the book.
In the story, the animals are anthropomorphic. They even share some institutions with humans. They have a mliitary, a legal system, and religion. Sharp-Ears was raised as a Catholic, although her lover Goldenstripe considered himself an atheist and free-thinker. (Human religion is ridiculed as "locking God up in a building".) They also have parties, drink, gossip, and walk upright (when they feel like it, anyway). There's no big separation between animals and humans in this story. Humans are just another animal as far as Sharp-Ears is concerned, which makes this story very different from most.
The original art was done by a guy named Stanislav Lolek. He has to be a furry. His portrait on his tombstone shows him holding a vixen. In pretty much every version, including the BBC/Geog Dunbar film, the characters alternate between feral and anthro in the artwork.
3ceb19f2 No.3640866
>nobody posted Franky Furbo from William Wharton
52c86868 No.3640879
>>3640734You know, the only reason I'd ever want to have a kid is to teach them how to read. There is absolutely no way a grown man could sit down and enjoy "Walter the Farting Dog" without using it to make a kid laugh and enjoy literature.
Plus you get to have an excuse to watch stupid kids movies in the theater, I had to recruit my 5'3 phillipino squad mate back in the air force just to have an excuse to watch the Lego movie in theaters. Pretending that twink was my kid was totally worth it. I'm over 6 ft… well technically we saw it with our "kid" and his other 4 dads.
ddf39547 No.3640887
>>3640879>There is absolutely no way a grown man could sit down and enjoy "Walter the Farting Dog" without using it to make a kid laugh and enjoy literature.Now you're giving the people like Aufy and others who are into some disgusting shit kink-wise too much credit.
6be04103 No.3640978
>>3640731>He has to be a furry.People like you just don't understand that stories like Renard the fox or the Cunning little vixen were written as allegories to avoid censorship at the time when they were written. They had absolutely nothing to do with "furry" at all - they were merely holding up a veil of "doubt" to say they weren't talking about the subjects they were really addressing.
7955e364 No.3641037
>>3640978Is cub porn allegory for child porn?
6be04103 No.3641038
>>3641037Maybe, or it can be a direct reference.
b48d8732 No.3641537
>>3641529Most kids that get molested are molested by someone they know.
52c86868 No.3642323
>>3640426Finally got around to listening to the series, got a few books in before I lost interest. Really couldn't believe how the book and movie share almost nothing in common other than names. It was kinda surprising.
I've seen movie adaptations really take some "artistic liberties" but this is just wtf. Still, the book itself is just way too young adult for me to have enjoyed reading, I only got as far as I did because I was listening to it in the background while bumbling my way through Omori. I probably would have enjoyed the read if I were 10-12 years old, just like with Redwall. Some things I kinda regret not being able to enjoy due to being a angsty 30 year old who never quite quite out of the goth phase.
e7ea0239 No.3642339
>>3641537Sad but true. "Stranger danger" is way overblown. Most abuse comes from a child's authority figures.
What baffles me is when I hear a story about some daughter that's locked in the basement for years while the other children are raised more or less normally. What the fuck happened there?
604cb4b6 No.3642341
>>3642339Children don't know what's normal and will believe whatever they're told. They don't know that the sister in their soundproof basement is a bad thing.
50af1153 No.3642421
>>3642339Stranger danger is masked by the effect where 99% of abduction cases are done by non-custodial parents or other relatives, and the cause is usually disagreements about visiting rights.
Still, strangers do abduct children as well. The statistics are suppressed by adding all sorts of unnecessary riders, such as having to transport the child more than 50 miles to count as a "classic stranger abduction". Once you add in runaway kids and custody disagreements, etc. the actual problem starts to look very small, but that's just a deliberate semantic trick to discredit the argument.
In reality these are different causes and different problems that are mashed together to direct the moral panic against a desired target, such as fathers trying to gain access to their own children.
ac7cfa5f No.3643172
I'm enjoying Blasphemy Online by Andrew Seiple.
A three volume book series about a guy living in a future world where America has broken up into different areas based on things like liberalism vs theocracy.
He lives in the theocracy where Religion is the law and censorship is standard.
People escape into state approved full-dive video-games but on the dark web, there is a new game that everyone is playing Generica Online.
No one knows which nation built it, no one knows who coded it, but our main character Richard who is a coder himself, starts to unravel some of its secrets when he gets offered the deal of a life-time by the NPC who helps you create your character…
https://audiobookbay.unblockit.how/audio-books/dragon-hack-blasphemy-online-book-1-andrew-seiple/https://audiobookbay.unblockit.how/audio-books/blasphemy-online-02-occult-place-to-die-andrew-seiple/https://audiobookbay.unblockit.how/audio-books/blasphemy-online-03-dragon-drop-andrew-seiple/Those links are for the audiobook format but for you basic bitches who like mp3s you can use VLC to convert them.
ac7cfa5f No.3643177
>>3643172I went ahead and uploaded the mp3 versions for MEGA for you because we all know how dumb some of you are.
https://mega.nz/folder/p8UzhQqY#OJOhEhoXtUZn81kq9MFqAw 52c86868 No.3643375
>>3643172Ill listen to that as soon as I'm done with The Witcher series.
Got back into the game after watching the netflix adaptation, and as much as I like the lore, I just couldn't get into the first 2 games. The books are filling in a lot of gaps, but all in all the books are turning out to be a lot less entertaining than I'd hoped. That might change, I've only gotten through the two prequels, and the first two books
b6f45360 No.3643380
>>3643375So whats your favorite song from the Netflix series? Mines currently burn butcher burn!
de8c482d No.3646666
Got opossums on the mind. Anyone read this as a kid? Here's a reading of it on Youtube.
https://youtu.be/rgE9Of9qfX8>>3642339That comic is pretty funny. Clever way to play off of their naming scheme.
>>3645731Invisible Dick is a grower, not a shower.
de8c482d No.3653896
>>3651650>>3651651Lord of the Flies is seriously good from what I remember. Have an excerpt:
>Simon stayed where he was, a small brown image, concealed by the leaves. Even if he shut his eyes the sow’s head still remained like an after-image. The half-shut eyes were dim with the infinite cynicism of adult life. They assured Simon that everything was a bad business.>“I know that.”>Simon discovered that he had spoken aloud. He opened his eyes quickly and there was the head grinning amusedly in the strange daylight, ignoring the flies, the spilled guts, even ignoring the indignity of being spiked on a stick.>He looked away, licking his dry lips.>A gift for the beast. Might not the beast come for it? The head, he thought, appeared to agree with him. Run away, said the head silently, go back to the others. It was a joke really—why should you bother? You were just wrong, that’s all. A little headache, something you ate, perhaps. Go back, child, said the head silently.>Simon looked up, feeling the weight of his wet hair, and gazed at the sky. Up there, for once, were clouds, great bulging towers that sprouted away over the island, grey and cream and copper-colored. The clouds were sitting on the land; they squeezed, produced moment by moment this close, tormenting heat. Even the butterflies deserted the open space where the obscene thing grinned and dripped. Simon lowered his head, carefully keeping his eyes shut, then sheltered them with his hand. There were no shadows under the trees but everywhere a pearly stillness, so that what was real seemed illusive and without definition. The pile of guts was a black blob of flies that buzzed like a saw. After a while these flies found Simon. Gorged, they alighted by his runnels of sweat and drank. They tickled under his nostrils and played leapfrog on his thighs. They were black and iridescent green and without number; and in front of Simon, the Lord of the Flies hung on his stick and grinned. At last Simon gave up and looked back; saw the white teeth and dim eyes, the blood—and his gaze was held by that ancient, inescapable recognition. In Simon’s right temple, a pulse began to beat on the brain.(cont.)
de8c482d No.3653897
(cont.)
>“You are a silly little boy,” said the Lord of the Flies, “just an ignorant, silly little boy.”
>Simon moved his swollen tongue but said nothing.
>“Don’t you agree?” said the Lord of the Flies. “Aren’t you just a silly little boy?”
>Simon answered him in the same silent voice.
>“Well then,” said the Lord of the Flies, “you’d better run off and play with the others. They think you’re batty. You don’t want Ralph to think you’re batty, do you? You like Ralph a lot, don’t you? And Piggy, and Jack?”
>Simon’s head was tilted slightly up. His eyes could not break away and the Lord of the Flies hung in space before him.
>“What are you doing out here all alone? Aren’t you afraid of me?”
>Simon shook.
>“There isn’t anyone to help you. Only me. And I’m the Beast.”
>Simon’s mouth labored, brought forth audible words.
>“Pig’s head on a stick.”
>“Fancy thinking the Beast was something you could hunt and kill!” said the head. For a moment or two the forest and all the other dimly appreciated places echoed with the parody of laughter. “You knew, didn’t you? I’m part of you? Close, close, close! I’m the reason why it’s no go? Why things are what they are?”
>The laughter shivered again.
>“Come now,” said the Lord of the Flies. “Get back to the others and we’ll forget the whole thing.”
>Simon’s head wobbled. His eyes were half closed as though he were imitating the obscene thing on the stick. He knew that one of his times was coming on. The Lord of the Flies was expanding like a balloon.
>“This is ridiculous. You know perfectly well you’ll only meet me down there—so don’t try to escape!”
>Simon’s body was arched and stiff. The Lord of the Flies spoke in the voice of a schoolmaster.
>“This has gone quite far enough. My poor, misguided child, do you think you know better than I do?”
>There was a pause.
>“I’m warning you. I’m going to get angry. D’you see? You’re not wanted. Understand? We are going to have fun on this island. Understand? We are going to have fun on this island! So don’t try it on, my poor misguided boy, or else—”
>Simon found he was looking into a vast mouth. There was blackness within, a blackness that spread.
>“—Or else,” said the Lord of the Flies, “we shall do you? See? Jack and Roger and Maurice and Robert and Bill and Piggy and Ralph. Do you. See?”
>Simon was inside the mouth. He fell down and lost consciousness.
0e93d510 No.3653909
>>3653896>>3653897Is he high or something?
8fa8d1ae No.3653945
>>3653909Hallucinating from hunger, thirst and terror of being marooned on a island
1f8fc5bb No.3653963
>>3640329"Sharp-ears" is based on a comic strip and a novel made by Stanislav Lolek and Rudolf Těsnohlídek in the 1920's, Liška Bystrouška, which was then made into an opera The Cunning Little Vixen by Leoš Janáček.
Rudolf Těsnohlídek who wrote the story was a messed up guy. He watched his friend drown when he was a teen. His first wife shot herself in front of him while on holiday in Norway, and he had to stand trial twice to prove that he didn't murder her. His second wife left. Third wife stayed. He eventually shot himself in 1928 and his wife gassed herself to death on hearing the news.
Sharp-ears, or the Cunning Little Vixen, is basically his psychological traumas and hangups about the world dressed up as a funny comic about a fox.
904b7cee No.3654018
>>3653963This is true.
Těsnohlídek obviously had a sense of humor and could see much good in life. Sharpears the Vixen was an embodiment of life itself - joy, lust, sex but also darkness, self doubt, and sadness to the point of depression. This realism is probably why the characters are so real and moving.
The New York Times Book Review (which runs four pages) said this:
". This is not a children's book. It is a beautifully written story that makes one think about life with good humor but not always with laughter. In fact, in places it is probably too strong for children: the action is rough; both the animals and the people in it are hunters and some get killed and many hurt. It is also gently risque throughout and in many places as earthy as any folk classic one can think of…
". It is a marvelous story. Towards the end it becomes poignant. At first that is surprising, but then one realizes that strong feelings have been building up for a long time and the writing is so graceful that one doesn't feel nipped by them at the outset. "
d473a5de No.3654031
>>3654018The fact that it was dressed up as a satire of a children's book with animal characters and all was probably the reason it could be written at all. That was the sugar that makes the pill go down.
fa6a0ab6 No.3654037
>>3653957Oooh, I haven't read those since I was a kid. I'll have to see if the library has them.
2d586a96 No.3661293
>>3661286>AngelfireThat's a throwback
e7ea0239 No.3661335
>>3640692I forget offhand. I'm guessing on the order of 100 pages or so.
I know I have it around but I think it's in a box somewhere.
Not sure if I mentioned it before – Perhaps the furriest star trek paperback book.
0ae9cab6 No.3665418
>>3665417*looks closer*
>Modern vibrators in medieval Redwall era time period.Some furry with a time machine force them to do this out of sheer chaos.
